Lebanese "Leftism" 101
Thursday, May 24, 2007
These days Lebanese "leftists" seem to be very much into bashing of Palestinians. I think it might have to do with their inability and unwillingness to do much else (except accuse anarchists of being "compulsive" and of "accusing people of things"). I'd be inclined to say that they are not "leftists". They are pseudo-leftists. But then, what is "leftism"? It seems that there are way too many things going under that term these days, so much so that a right-wing nutcase would be able to take shelter under it and still have people cheer for him. "Leftists" are fighting amongst themselves for monopoly over the term/label. As for the content of the label, it does not matter. At all.
For example, read the following excerpts from the "analysis" of a Lebanese "leftist":
The Syrian connection:
Naher el-Bared is located only 7 Kilometers away from the Syrian borders in the North. If you draw that on a small scale on any paper in front of you just now, do not draw anything but a "camp" and then "borders". And trust me... their is NOTHING that can stand between the most convenient armament and supply line for both points. That made a huge difference between Naher el-Bared and the other camps.The proof:
This proves Syria's role in giving such primacy to the Islamists through a highly unbalanced presence where no other palestinian group could've opposed or even merely competed. This is why the civilians were caught in the middle considering the surprise attack that started this operation.And now, the "leftism" kicks in:
If the civilians have been silent enough to get the militants to entrench themselves and to establish such firm control before the fighting broke out, doesn't that imply that they knew that militancy brings war? what's a damn cannon for? Beautifying the scenery? Or threatening the Israelis not to attack? This doesn't of course mean that the Palestinians are all in on this... Probably i leave this to Amine Gemayyel or Geagea to conclude. But militancy is not done in secret and particularly in the case of Fateh al-Islam people have known about it for 6 months to say the least.Some more "leftism":
In defense of the Army, you cannot envision the army of being hitting blindly the whole camp careless of who exactly their shells hit. The army WAS BEING ATTACKED. It was Fatah al-Islam that broke all agreements for ceasefire in order to allow the safe exit of Palestinians. It is not equipped with proper weapons to return fire against specified accurate targets even if it could differentiate between civilian and militant. This opens up a political pandora's box about how much burdens this army carries amidst this endless turmoil. Still, the army hit back with the minimum damage to civilians. Everytime the army stopped shooting it was Fatah that hit first.Be warned: the dosage of "leftism" is increasing as we move along:
The whole propaganda about bombing civilians started with the pro-Syrian sources saying that there's a humanitarian crisis in the camp. The humanitarian crisis was trigerred by Fatah without even needing the army. Since if you have militants overtaking your house, you're already in deep shit no? If you are against it, then don't you do something about it?My initial response:
Huh???Excerpts from the reply:
Are you for real?????????????????????
Man, I would've never expected such a post from you.
But then this proves my theory.
That Lebanese "leftists" are a joke.
That nationalism blinds even the most (presumably) open-minded and non-racist people of all.
Have you seen the civilian death toll? Before you shower me with your "humaine" emotions? Check the Red Cross Official Report: 56 dead - 4 of which are civilians - 3 males who were actually found with the militants. Check for facts, its always important to do so before engaging in debate - u don't want to be a misinformed participant - it's silly trust me.Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori:
I join MFL in Saluting with Honor those who died in vain Palestinians, Kurds, AUbergines, and whatever u want to choose! I also extend my respect and sadness to the lost souls and brainwashed minds of those who are fighting on the wrong side and for the wrong cause... And allow me to remind you that they are NOT PALESTINIANS.. Again, check the facts... The highest percentage of the fighters is SAUDI, then SYRIAN, the PALESTINIAN."Leftists" do worry about human rights (while supporting the indiscriminate shelling of a refugee camp populated by more than 30,000 people):
Now, concerning the camps. Since you might (considering that case lo precedence u are misinformed and compulsive and anarchist by all means and u will act accordingly) be hasty in throwing all types of accusations at me, I am gonna explain it to u in simple and clear words. The social, political, and economic conditions in the camps are below zero. No respect for human rights, not even the minimum living standards.Diversionary rhetoric (trust ME, I have experienced such rhetoric and tactics from many of your ilk):
Corrupt palestinians who use their guns and terrorize other Palestinians in the name of empty causes in order to fill their pockets. I have EXPERIENCED IT. Trust me, a real Palestinian refugee (in that term) would tell u this: U want to help us? emancipate us from the grip of those robbing us off from within the camps. It is weird that Abou al-Aynayn is a millionaire and he's representing a big chunk of the camps. LEt's do an estimation of the GDP of a certain camp or the overall income per day at least... I challenge you it won't compare to this man's fortune...My reply:
Now you are rambling left right center.Need I say more???! Read the whole thing here.
Did you read what I said?
Did you actually read what you wrote?
Please do. Read what you wrote, that is.
Your post is full of reactionary arguments. Not just conspiracy theories about Syrian involvement, but also generalizations and blaming the victims for bringing it upon themselves.
Your argument is eerily similar (if at all distinguishable) from the Israeli argument of "collateral damage". Indiscriminate shelling (whether or not the army has accurate weapons) is a crime. If you do not have the appropriate weapons that is your problem. If you do not care if it is your problem and support the indiscriminate shelling, then you are immoral and are in my eyes no different than the Israelis, who also claimed to be acting in the interests and defense of their people from "terrorists".
In other words, "comrade", allow me to conclude this based on your post and subsequent rant: you are the "same shit, with a different name."
And yet, to cover up your blatant reactionary and racist rant about the Palestinians having to be blamed for not doing anything when they clearly saw those people training, etc., you bring a thousand things about millionaire Fateh leaders and so on. Where did you see me defend those???? Oh for goodness's sake, try your diversionary tactics with someone else. Fateh is a sellout (you can guess to whom, and no, it's not Syria for goodness's sake, though I am sure you will find a way to make that argument, too). So are all the other parties.
Your argument was clearly not about parties, though.
"If the civilians have been silent enough to get the militants to entrench themselves and to establish such firm control before the fighting broke out, doesn't that imply that they knew that militancy brings war?"
And then you distanced yourself from a possible comparison with Gemayel or Geagea. But your argument still stands. Or else, why did you mention it? You merely put in a corollary, that "not all" Palestinians are in on this. But then again, even Geagea would be willing to give you that!!!
Man, if you do not see anything wrong with what you said, then I pity you, really, and pity the "leftism" in the name of which you speak.
If you cannot see beyond the tip of your nose, then you are ignorant. You have allowed yourself to be dragged into the petty finger-pointing, much like at some point people used to blame (less so today) every single thing on Israel or America. MUCH LIKE the Islamist radicals continuously blame the "kuffar" and America and "crusaders" on every single thing.
For goodness's sake, read your post. Look in the mirror. Stop justifying your racism and ignorance by accusing me of being "compulsive".
What more can I say.
It's good that such circumstances expose people's true colors (though they might try to justify this exposure of colors by accusing others of being "compulsive" or misinformed). Misinformed about what? If you have any information about Syrian responsibility for what is happening now (and not how they built mazes in the camp some years ago!!) then clearly you know something that we don't, and why don't you inform your beloved shitty army of it? The same army that is indiscriminately shelling the poor Palestinian refugees (for you they bear the responsibility for not speaking out) did not dare launch a single bullet let alone a shell against Israel. Your problem is that you see things in black and white, good vs. evil. For you, the army in this fight is "the good", fighting against the "evil terrorists". I salute you for taking this very brave position.
and no need to reply!!!! I have nothing more to say, nor do I feel the need to read more of your diversionary arguments!!!
posted by Angry Anarchist @ 5/24/2007 02:58:00 PM,
- At May 24, 2007 at 4:24 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
Dearest Angry Anarchist:
1- Thank you for your opinion on me. I appreciate your constructive criticism.
2- If you know how to break down people's words, doesn't mean you know what's in their minds.
3- You talk as if you're always born to be in the right and the rest justify themselves to you. Do not place yourself on the offensive all the time, it doesn't mean the 'other' will retreat to defend.
4- You categorize as much as those you accuse racism and bigotry. It is not you who sets the standard, and people do not await your certificate to be accepted as open minded and non-discriminatory. To me, question is, ARE YOU?
5- You consider me to build a conspiracy theory on Syria's role. Again this is what YOU consider, not what IS. And you do not DECIDE. Have you realized yet that you're probably not GOD?
6- Syria is behind the unrest in Lebanon, and it is not DOING EVERYTHIN and involved in EVERY DETAIL but it is working on the basis that it can manipulate the system in full in Lebanon. Just juxtapose Syrian officials' statements and the events in Iraq and in Lebanon. Example: Walid Muallem openly said: We cant cover both borders, Iraq and Lebanon. The Americans are asking too much. Now.. compare the death toll in Iraq since events in Lebanon have taken place. There are millions of such obvious FACTS not rash accusations. I honestly don't think the Syrians even bother hiding their trail. Again, it is my opinion, if you don't mind.
7- My point on the camps is clear: Search for a survey in the al-Balad archives. You will find that 67% of camps refugees are against Palestinian weapons even inside their camps. But are they in control? no. How will their suffering end? you don't know do you? There is a corrupt and violent regime of an oligarchy of militant and radical and unorderly groups with so many extensions with regional interests, such as HAMAS that are in control of the camps.
8- You suddenly and i don't know how, bring me to the point inno Fatah isn't a Syrian ally. Really? I didn't know that! ;-) Hence Fatah el-Islam? (how can you miss that one out???) just like the PLA remember that one? easy honey... Syrians do use their imagination.
9- Again... and for the final time... you did not give me THE NUMBER OF THE VICTIMS of your alleged BUTCHERY! I want YOUR FACTS. Or else... well.. we both agreed... do not read or write... better...
- At May 24, 2007 at 5:14 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
2-This goes also with your argument on Syria's statements, no? Or does that not fit into your AGENDA?
3-What does being right or wrong have anything to do with this? You pointed the finger of accusation (not suspicion-- they are two different things), and I criticized the fact that you are just as ignorant as the others. It has become so laughable that Jumblatt even accused Al Jazeera of supporting Syria. I would not be surprised if you come and tell me one day that this is true. Yes, you are supposed to defend. You make an argument, you defend your argument. Or you expect me to present you with facts but you are not supposed to do the same???? Please prove to me that Syria is the one who is behind this whole affair (and also the bombings). ANALYSIS (and suspicion based on analysis) is one thing. ACCUSATION is another. If you accuse someone of something it means you have very solid evidence for doing so. Unless you are Walid Jumblatt.
4-On the contrary, it is I who sets the standard. You have no right to tell me what my standards should be. The most you can do is not give a shit about my standards. Which you seem not to be doing. For someone who insists on not retreating, you did retreat into defensive position quite a bit there. :)
5-Yeah, that is what *I* consider. And my consideration is mine, why do you have a problem with it? Do you want to silence my criticism? Moreover, if this is only what *I* consider, then what about your argument? Isn't that also what YOU CONSIDER? Or it is what "IS"? Maybe you ARE God?
6-Syria is behind the unrest in Lebanon. Very well, that is what YOU consider, not what IS. Or not?
Or do you have proof that this is the case? Does Jumblatt have proof? Why does he bash Al Jazeera then? If he has proof let him present it? If you have proof, please present it? I eagerly await to see your proofs. And can you tell me in what way Syria differs from USA, or Israel, or Saudi Arabia or Jordan or other countries that have intelligence agents in Lebanon and also a vested interest (if you analyze) in escalation in Lebanon? Oh sorry, Syria is trying to destroy the "Cedar Revolution" (trademark). But if we are to base arguments and conclusions on spoken words (although you insist that I cannot know what is on your mind based on your words) then wouldn't Israel be the primary suspect? Didn't Israel talk about turning Lebanon's clock back by 20 years?
First, Daily Star..
Now, Al Balad.
A leftist basing his argument on Al Balad newspaper.
Moreover, what does that have anything to do with my criticism??? Do you know how to read English? Please re-read my replies.
Do I have a solution? Maybe. Maybe not.
However, indiscriminate shelling is not one of them.
Is that YOUR solution? Seems like it. Or else what is the relation of this point you raised to what I was saying?
8- Fateh, Fateh Intifada, and Fateh Islam are three different entities. I hope you knew that. Moreover, that Fateh might have been in the Syrian orbit does not mean it is so now. Fateh is now in the Israel-USA orbit (and in refugee camps in Lebanon, in the Hariri orbit). I seriously hope you knew that and are not basing your argument on the common word between Fateh, Fateh Intifada and Fateh Islam. That's like saying that HezbAllah is Amal, because HezbAllah was at one point al-Amal al-Islami (splinter group from Amal).
9- The number of victims, unlike what you claimed the Red Cross said, is more than 20 killed (this according to many Palestinian civilians inside the camps as well as UNRWA). Among the dead are a UNRWA official and the wife of a UNRWA medical officer (this according to UNRWA press conference). In addition, more than 80 injuries, many moderate-serious. But it makes no sense. You are admitting that the bombing is indeed indiscriminate. If it is indiscriminate there is just as much chance, if not more (given the ratio of fighters to refugees remaining in the camps!!!!) that civilians would be injured and killed. Is UNRWA bluffing? Or is the ARMY bluffing (army said only one unarmed Palestinian has been killed. Wow!!! What miracle. Is this, I wonder, a prelude to "nasr min Allah"???
But then, if there are no accurate numbers and so far estimates (which are quite reliable, unless you are saying that there is some sort of Palestinian and aid agency conspiracy against the poor, heroic army of yours), it does NOT mean that there are no civilian casualties, which is what YOU are saying. So either/or.
And may I see where the Red Cross said that there are only 4 civilians who have been killed, 3 of whom were with fighters?
- At May 24, 2007 at 5:56 PM, MarxistFromLebanon said...
looool, another Fatwa?
- At May 24, 2007 at 6:39 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
The army has avoided the bombing since day one. It has attempted to establish a ceasefire so that the civilians are neutralized and safe. It was the militants that constantly broke any terms by firing back. Did you take that into consideration? And you’re saying that the army opened fire on the camp. You are right, it did not invade the camp, and this is because there’s been an Arab decision to disallow them to go into the camps so that these groups do not move their business elsewhere. Spare me all your class discrimination and racism crap, I truly do not give a damn about what you think nor do I need you to give me acceptance. With that you are right don’t worry.
As I was saying in my original post, it is the political and militant groups that have STOOD AGAINST keeping this away from civilian threat. Why? There’s a political and twisted usage of this whole plot, why didn’t the factions stand up to their word until Moallem received a call from Pan Ki Mun begging just to let out some of the civilians?
You my fellow humanist are too busy making assumptions and accusing left and right and getting all emotional and passionate, the capital of your righteousness. I understand.
You reminded me of an incident when I was once chatting with Comrade Lal Khan (MFL was present too) when he said to us: A good revolutionary is one with two senses: a sense of proportion and a sense of humor.
You only enjoy the latter… You just view things from your own idiosyncrasy; to you an army plays the same role wherever it is put, and even the term Palestinian is racist if I use it. Well explain all you wish and coin terms the way you want, in the end it is quite obvious that you have neither the facts nor the alternatives. You are just good in criticism. Something that is pretty easy I think. You even criticized me for using a statistic in al-Balad and then made fun of an-Nahar and so on. I do find them irrelevant and rather biased and unprofessional. Give me a good source in return. Most books that you read originate in the United States and come from publication houses, think tanks, and institutes that work in the sphere of the American polity. You read sources from American perspectives and rarely do you have the knowledge of how they are molded.
You further try to discredit me as if I don’t know Fateh from Fateh Intifada and Fateh al-Islam. Why? I wonder… did you not notice what I said? Let me explain again maybe this time you can get it: Fateh is not pro-Syrian I know that of course, hence the creation of Fateh al-Intifada! And then Fateh al-Islam! Just like the Syrians have always hogged on the Palestinian issue. I gave you the example of the PLA… But you seem to have disregarded that…
Palestinian civilians inside the camp are not an official source. So isn’t the wife of an UNRWA officer. I am basing my argument on the Red Cross Report; the only organization that was involved and that actually went into the camp since this started. Not some resident who probably saw a partial version of things! I am escaping emotional assessments as much as possible here.
You are just assuming that the Palestinian factions are working in vacuum. Only you have mentioned that Fatah became pro-Hariri. Good, you improved your level of observation. Doesn’t that explain to you the rush of anti-Fatah movements in the camps? To make sure that there is no significant Lebanese-Palestinian cooperation? And who is mobilizing such movements? The Seychelles? Give me a fucking break! Were is Khaled al-Mashaal based? In Nairubi no?
You twisted my terms on the militancy of the camps into a racist categorization. My original idea, although I insist that this re-explanation wont get through your thick head, is that the militancy in the camps is a product of the corruption, criminal, and intense political intervention and usage means that have come to rule Palestinian lives. That doesn’t mean that I am accusing Palestinians of being terrorists for being Palestinians! Again, give me a fucking break! You did not give me any answer to my questions… Why are there no groups that at least try to peacefully stand against the practices of the militants? Don’t expect anything but insults from you.
Furthermore, you also suddenly accuse the army as if it is a huge and dark villain. Give me one good reason why the army would suddenly out of the blue start pounding the camp. And also remember what I told you, the Naher el-Bared is actually a Syrian orchestrated territory, and when I say that they brought in the militants… I give you proof: go to Syrian newspapers and check the archives and you shall find a proud announcement of setting Saddam whatever his family name is in order to project the regime as just and wise. Again, you get the proof and you ignore it. You just blabber and you would forever. You will never be convinced because you have too much ego to in the first place. I am even sorry I engaged in this argument, it is aimless and rather stupid.
You want to challenge my leftism? You are funny. What does leftism have to do with the issue at hand I don’t know. Anyway, you are making fun of how I put things into good and bad… and how unleftist that is… funny… and oppressor – oppressed is all about grey isn’t it? Oh and the whole dialectic of historical materialism is based on grey areas of CONFLICT?
And also tell me how exactly did I ACCUSE Syria of perpetrating the acts? My analysis is: SYRIA IS THE PRIMARY SUSPECT if not the only. I do not pledge a 100% accusation and no where in my comments did I say that. I said Syria is successfully manipulating that balance. This one, needs no proof! This one is political and you can disregard (just like you do with anything that is not in your in the first place)
Please, I already feel very bad to have gotten to this… I am sick of your dumb accusations. as I said in the first place… go visit the Naher el-Bared camp and then give me ur great analysis. And again.. give me facts. You are the last to label people and then claim to be the holy humanist you are… again where’s your bit of the activism? Your blog? I wonder where you were while we worked our asses off in 1996 (I was fucking 14 years old) and in 2006 when we helped refugees and stood against the true indiscriminate attacks. Behind the PC I reckon?
You are what you accuse others of… a true disillusioned reactionary.
NB: you are much more fun when you’re drunk ;-)
- At May 24, 2007 at 7:57 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
My friend: I do not care if it was Fateh al-Islam that broke the ceasefire. Do you know of the saying, one wrong does not make another one right???? Or you can't comprehend it because you are too deep into the SHIT called nationalism?
Are you really that short-sighted to think that the decision to disallow them to go into the camp (singular, not plural) is "so that these groups do not move their business elsewhere"? And the fact that the army is not doing so means that they would not move their business elsewhere???? Hello?!?!? They are all over Tripoli. Or is that also false information from pro-Syrian sources???
You seem intent on making me accept your arguments. You are desperate to prove your point and to pass your analyses as facts. :) You ARE passing your analyses as facts. I, on the other hand, am not. I am merely pointing to the fact that you are pointing fingers without having any evidence (i.e. you are passing things as facts). You are doing EXACTLY what WJ is doing. EXACTLY THE SAME. It's a pity you can't see that.
So I do not see what it is that you are trying to prove.
One thing, though. Your implication that the Syrian regime is dumb enough to do these things and in such an explicit manner as you claim they are doing, stems from your racism and underestimation of Syrians. I know, I argue with people who say the same, on a daily basis.
My friend, the Syrians have managed to do through diplomacy what the Lebanese will never manage to do, not in a million years. You boast of being so smart to "know" the Syrian involvement in this, and yet you are in fact presenting yourself as quite the opposite, by merely insisting (blindly) on it (at least MFL leaves some room for alternative analyses, which I should give him credit for). Anyone who takes things for face value and dismisses alternatives, when things are never so simple in the region, and where actors and interests abound, deserves to be called stupid and to be a laughingstock.
You called me a "humanist". Wow, so just because I am pointing to the crimes committed by the army against Palestinian refugees, I have become a "humanist"? Uff. Well, count me in, then. At least I am not a masochistic mass-murderer.
Yes, I am good at criticism. And damn proud of it. Critical minds are lacking in this country. It is a shame that even the most critical-appearing minds get drawn into such blind conspiracy theories and do not allow themselves to entertain other possibilities. Criticism stems from critical thinking. Have you ever taken part in a debating society?
Do you know how to play the devil's advocate?
How do you expect to know your enemy (whoever that may be) when you cannot see things from the enemy's (or enemies', plural) point of view?
I did not criticize your usage of the statistics. I criticized your overusage of Al-Balad and Daily Star. This is like people who rely on Al-Hayat and Asharq al Awsat in their research on Lebanon or Syria. That is not to say that one should not read those papers to get an idea (quite the contrary).
And btw, I do not rely on books. Moreover, I take everything I read, with a grain of salt. Yes, even Seymour Hersh's article.
Analysis based on these various sources is fine. Forming an opinion is fine too. But I do not claim beyond the shadow of the doubt, that so and so is behind a certain act. However logical it might seem.
Palestinian civilians inside the camp are not an official source.
Who was talking about official sources? You said:
"The whole propaganda about bombing civilians started with the pro-Syrian sources saying that there's a humanitarian crisis in the camp."
Are the Palestinian civilians a pro-Syrian source? (if so, bomb them?!?!?)
And please read what I wrote. You said: "So isn’t the wife of an UNRWA officer."
The wife of the UNRWA officer was KILLED. Along with another UNRWA official. That's according to the UNRWA press conference.
Where is the Red Cross report?
Where can I read it?
The ICRC has released a statement saying there are no official estimates on casualties. How does this mean there are none (or very few)?
I am not assuming that Palestinian factions are working in vacuum. In fact I made no such argument, nor was my criticism based on my possibly different reading of what is going on.
Yeah, it could be the Seychelles, or just about anyone else.
What does Khaled Meshaal have to do with this?
Or you consider Hamas to be "terrorist" too?
Gee... you are getting quite close to the Israeli argument there. :) Maybe you and MFL should take a stroll down to Tel Aviv. I know that at least one of you would not mind to visit. In the name of "internationalism". But in the name of the same internationalism, "Fateh al-Islam must be eliminated at all costs".
I did not give you answers to your questions? Wait, I thought *I* was the one doing the questioning. ;)
Whoa calm down there buddy, you are not going to succeed in pushing me on the defensive. I never was, and therefore never will be. Because I was not the one throwing wild conspiracy theories left and right. :)
If you have articles in Syrian newspapers, provide the date in which they appeared (in the name of academic honesty at least :) )
What does leftism have to do with the issue?
Exactly my point.
Because, you are not "leftist".
Unless there is some new definition of "leftism" in Lebanon. Which would not surprise me. The Israelis have their own, and you know, the Lebanese cannot be like "the Arabs". They are much more civilized than that.
Yes, "[You] said Syria is successfully manipulating that balance."
That is "exactly [how you] ACCUSE[D] Syria of perpetrating the acts?"
"This one, needs no proof!"
Is it an undeniable claim?
Is it a god-sent truth?
"give me facts"
Who are you to demand facts?
Can't I use "this one, needs no proof" argument myself?
Or is that only for your own perusal? :D
You think your "activism" justifies your encouragement of the criminal onslaught of the shitty Lebanese army that did not lift a finger against Israel?
You think by flaunting your "activist" certificate you are proving your point?
Yes, I am reactionary. And a humanist, too. But you, you are no "leftist". And worse, you are a cheerleader for the terrorism of the so-called "army".
I guess some terrorism is not really terrorism.
And some people are more equal than others.
Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
This is my last reply to you, and I hope you would put into practice your statement: "I truly do not give a damn about what you think nor do I need you to give me acceptance" and stop replying to me.
- At May 24, 2007 at 8:14 PM, Graeme said...
It doesn't seem to be Syrian related at all. The US has it's dirty hands in the mess.
Counterpunch is reporting that the US (along with Walid Jumblatt, Samir Geagea and Saad Hariri) are behind the funding of FAI (among other groups). They are to counter Hezbollah's influence. Sy Hersch reported this a few months back. (this made them cut funding to the group and we see what happened)
- At May 24, 2007 at 9:18 PM, Peter H said...
They are to counter Hezbollah's influence. Sy Hersch reported this a few months back. (this made them cut funding to the group and we see what happened)
There was a discussion of this at Joshua Landis' blog.
- At May 25, 2007 at 2:05 AM, Alor said...
«Where is the Lebanese Army's "Mossad 101" handbook? Or is something else going on here?»
Aren't (for real), as SOTT's saying, "Fatah Islam" hired mercenaries, very much like other "al-Qaeda" fighters, in the pay of the Israeli Mossad and possibly the CIA?
- At May 25, 2007 at 9:19 AM, sTreEt eYeS said...
You are so good at twisting terms and understanding things in reverse… I’m starting to think you’re dyslexic…
You assume that I am proving my point and forcing it onto you? Come on! You are not the center of the universe… May I remind you that it was you who started this stupid argument? I don’t recall inviting you over my blog to prove my point…
You show up and start blindly throwing accusations.
I got the Red Cross Report from the RED CROSS it is in Sanayeh region. In other words, outside your house and beyond your pc screen. However, I still think you can get it yourself, just jump over to your phone and call the red cross they will give you the numbers by phone.
I am convinced that the Syrians have a hand in the incidents. Check the Norwegian news today, the police have caught two men transporting huge amounts of money and suspected of terrorism. The men HAVE CONFESSED that they are part of a network of fighters being trained in LATTAKIA… today noon, the Syrians will deny and consider this a political scam… you will believe that the Norwegians are in on the story just like the Europeans, the Americans, the Arabs, the Israelis, and the Africans… for what purpose? I don’t know… and you will just go rambling about the post-modernist aspiration to discredit every bit of information offered. That is the true version of conspiracy theories… that same type that Jean Boudrillard’s frame conceptualizes… You want to adopt post modernism into the argument it would be much more productive I myself do take it into consideration and this one is a huge huge debate but a rather great one… but there’s proportion at hand… that which u lack…
Worse yet, add to ur conspiracy obsessed mind, reactionary thought and absolute disconnection from the surrounding reality. This explains why you did not provide me with the real number of victims of you ALLEGED MASSACRE… and also why you do not HAVE ALTERNATIVES.
Probably also why you found nothing else but to accuse me of not being leftist and nationalist. And you pity me… I wonder…
I have made the decision not to insist on that just so that I would “project onto others” that I am a true leftist. I would rather follow facts and base myself on that. With all that and I still do not make my words to be 100% RIGHT… that is the least unprofessional. And of course you accuse me of being a psychotic egomaniac trying to force my thoughts as the truth. Another episode of twisting my words and my thoughts.
Listen, do not believe anything… and the piece of info about the Norwegian police, I myself do not credit until there is validation yet. But trust me, you are totally disconnected and it is not helping you channel your frustration right… Try volunteering in something ‘real’ and to work for it… if u cant find anything to do of such nature.. try jogging… if even that is out of the question… try getting laai…
It would help.
Last word of advice: dissecting words is not necessarily a prerequisite of manipulating ideas…
- At May 25, 2007 at 9:29 AM, sTreEt eYeS said...
i wonder within all ur huge and quite an impressive persona u failed to even condemn the slaughter of 11 soldiers. why because they're soldiers? you are being exactly what u fukin accuse people of! Or maybe i don't know... you do not believe that info... it is being 'constructed'.
no no... wait... i think ur right... those are 14 march trying to glorify the image of the government and to cover the trace of AMerican involvement...
See... i am with 14 of march and i am defending them and i want the yankees to rule lebanon... i was so happy when israelis bombed the hell out of us... and today all this is a scam to glorify the army and use the palestinians in such a racist fashion.. we're all fucking pigs...
You're seriously a joke.. with the crust of a most profound and totally liberated "intellectual"...
- At May 25, 2007 at 9:33 AM, sTreEt eYeS said...
and geagea is funding muslim fundamentalists.... this should be turned to a comedy... geagea funding Fateh el-Islam, and Hariri too! wow... the security forces and the tripoli officials were harboring the militants in order to balance with hizbollah... fyi Hariri has recruited around 15 thousand sunni from akkar as private security forces and has placed them around beirut and tripoli.. THOSE ARE THE ONES ALL OVER TRIPOLI.... i have solid FUCKING PROOF FOR YOU! GO TO MAYFAIR appartments in HAMRA and try booking a room! and see what they tell you.
Oh i forgot... u can't leave your pc... ur glued...
- At May 25, 2007 at 9:38 AM, sTreEt eYeS said...
i was just giving u a taste of ur medicine... bothering u with comments... and now i'm done
- At May 25, 2007 at 1:50 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
You are not bothering me with your comments. Just that I have no time to get into a lengthy debate, especially when it's going round and round in circles and you are evading my questions.
I checked with the International Red Cross, and they say there is no official count of casualties. So, get your facts right. :)
Man, really, I do not care, you can go on believing in your conspiracy theories, but they are just that - conspiracy theories. Or just theories, without the conspiracy. Do you have proof? No.
What about the ones who were released by the Lebanese authorities? Why were they released? What about the Dinnieh gangsters? Why were they released? Who pushed to release them? WHo is pushing now for the release of yet another of the ones involved in Dinnieh?
And can you tell me why Welsh met with Michel Suleiman behind closed doors?
Or that is a "conspiracy theory" and your arguments are not?
Yeah, alleged massacre, or massacre, does it matter? Fact of the matter is, you are doing onto others exactly that which you do not want others to do onto you. Or were you with the collective punishment meted out by the Israelis only last summer? Or is it "but that's different!!!" ?
You would rather follow facts -- very well. But where are your facts?
Where is your proof that Syria is behind this?
And if I volunteer for something, I do not need to flaunt it around. You probably would not even know about it. I hope you get the point.
And no, volunteering is not about activism (although you can stretch the definition to fit it into "civic activism" -- which again is different from political activism). Anyway mate, that is none of your business what I do with my time.
I failed to condemn the killing of 11 soldiers. Yeah, keep it up with the official Lebanese mentality, where people are supposed to send in condemnatory statements and if they don't boast of having been the first to condemn it or something, it would either mean they are supportive of the whole thing or have a hand in it. Well done.
Now it seems you have run out of arguments and are trying to insinuate that I do not care about the 11 soldiers who were slaughtered and their heads cut off, and that I am happy it happened. Or something.
Well, I would not be surprised if you would think that. I mean, you are after all taking conspiracy theories and presenting them as "facts". :)
And as for Geagea, he is a criminal. There is no such thing as a "moral criminal".
And in fact, it seems I do leave the PC more than you do. :) I've been out and about all day. In fact, most day yesterday, too. :) Funny who is accusing whom of being glued to the PC. But then again desperation does that to people.
Like the Nayla Mu'awwad thing you & MFL came up with. ;)
- At May 25, 2007 at 1:50 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Btw, what do you think of the foreign armed personnel that landed in Lebanon today? Or it's also a pro-Syrian propaganda? :)
- At May 25, 2007 at 1:56 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Btw, MFL tells me that if Fateh al-Islam is really not Syrian, it would have said so. But what about this statement by the military commander of the group, Abu Hurairah??
يضيف ان السلطات السورية في لبنان اعتقلته في مطلع شبابه، «وسُجنت في سورية مدة خمس سنوات ونصف السنة. وعلى رغم ذلك يتهموننا بأننا عملاء للنظام السوري في لبنان».
So now we have safely ruled out Syria based on that argument. :)
Good. Next? Or now you will say that he is doing Syria's bidding exactly because he denied it? :D
- At May 25, 2007 at 3:34 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
You answered yourself smartie... you know he made a pledge with god never to sin.. so he can't lie...
And now it is YOU who believes in black and white??? now he's a Jihadist who wants to kill all infidels? What the fuck do you think is HIS OBJECTIVE? To fight for Islam in Lebanon?
Khalas really... you really are amuzingly disillusioned...
Khalas why bother? You are lashing out on nationalism (which i never even defended in the first place) and you urself seem to have no problem with the Islamists... nor with the rising sectarianism in the region... and u are what? an internationalist?
Remember how you considered Khamenei as a "suitable" leader for Iran cos the people like him? Or did that slip your mind?
I ask you a simple fucking question: HAVE YOU SEEN THE TROOPS AND FOREIGN ARMED PERSONNEL? DO U KNOW WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THEIR JOB IF THEY EVER CAME?
Have you heard Elias el-Murr's statement? That if Iran sends support we would be grateful.
I feel bad to have to even seem like defending people like Elias el-Murr.
I really like your work on almost everything you've published and I am even gonna follow the sources you've chosen to read myself. And I believe you are one hell of a researcher and a writer. But when it comes to anything beyond theory... you are unbelieveably reactionary and you are rigid as hell...
Spare me... and for once give me facts... now u believe Abu Huraira.. and u blame me for believing a statistic in al-balad?
Tell me, why have the Syrians closed their borders?? oh... bcos to make sure no terrorists infiltrate to lebanon?
So this means they are aware that terrorists CAN pass... but decided to do something about it just now... and do what exactly? CLOSE THE WHOLE FUCKING BORDER!!!
My reading is:
1- So not to allow any civilian refugees to flee to Syria... and the regime CANT SAY NO it will lose politically especially with Bashar's RE-ELECTION coming up (what a fuckin joke)
2- So that no fighters LEAVE LEBANON... the message is clear: you FIGHT FOR UR LIFE AND DIE IN LEBANON.
since u r quite inciteful on the class awareness question and the role of identity in creating diversionary forces to the proletariat... Explain to me how do u envision the current situation that a possible Fatah el-Islam fighter would be?
You are aware that they were given LOADS of MONEY? Where from???? WHY DID THEY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH OTHER PALESTINIAN GROUPS EXCEPT WITH THE PROSYRIAN ONES LIKE HAMAS????
I doubt you even follow these details...
Will we ever finish? I doubt...
- At May 25, 2007 at 3:41 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
it is true that mossad actually trained al-Qaeda fighters in the 90s but things changed now and those fighters switched axes..
but now even Iran is accused of training al-qaeda and Syria as well... in Sudan and in South Africa... were it is impossible to trace the source of support.
although i do not believe that claim cos from the iraqi perspective iranian support for al Qaeda seems irrational but from the Afghani side it makes sense...
Such info can never be validated...
i leave the only constant here... that the iranian and syrian regimes have made it clear to benefit the instability to alter the regional balance to their advantage.
- At May 25, 2007 at 3:54 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
oh and one more thing...
the eleven men who died all range in age between 18 and 25 and get a salary of 400,000LL and come from the worst Slumbers of Akkar..
And 10 are sunni muslims... one orthodox... (those are the LEBANESE terms)
MY TERMS: they are proletariat too... or are they big VICIOUS soldiers becos to u they are AUTHORITY???
if u cant see a human bcos of the uniform then u cant see beyond ur fucking nose... try updating your marxist repertoire...
no one is boasting about activism we're just defending ourselves from ur lunatic insults and ur labelling of people...
I really did not expect that from u at all...
and ur right u did get me to give u too much attention... i spend most my day at work checking my blog... not my usual routine.. i give u that credit..
khalas.. we just differ in opinion on the issue and i think u went to far in ur attacks.. i don't challenge ur witts to downplay u.. and i think this is weakness my friend. very bad communication. god help those who disagree with u... but again it doesn't make u any better trust me.
yalla khalas unilateral cease fire. this time i promise. I have shit loads of work!
- At May 25, 2007 at 6:08 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
"You answered yourself smartie... you know he made a pledge with god never to sin.. so he can't lie... "
Where did I answer myself, and to what question?
Did you read the statement?
The implication is: We are not Syrian agents or fighting for Syrian interests.
I do not care if he is lying or saying the truth.
Merely debunking yet another argument MFL threw my way today: "MFL tells me that if Fateh al-Islam is really not Syrian, it would have said so."
"you urself seem to have no problem with the Islamists."
"nor with the rising sectarianism in the region"
"Remember how you considered Khamenei as a "suitable" leader for Iran cos the people like him?"
Whoa, calm down there buddy. I said no such thing as "suitable" leader, nor that the people like him.
Again, you seem to have a problem with the concept of someone shooting down arguments. Do you know how that works?
Person A says something.
You debunk A's claim.
A's claim being debunked, does not mean that I have made any other claim.
This is not like:
If A, then B.
Logic 101. Always insisted that students in this country must sit through extensive logic courses. :)
"HAVE YOU SEEN THE TROOPS AND FOREIGN ARMED PERSONNEL? DO U KNOW WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THEIR JOB IF THEY EVER CAME? "
Likewise, have you seen the Syrian hand in this?
Have you seen the 4 civilians who were killed?
"Have you heard Elias el-Murr's statement? "
Elias el Murr is a joke. Any statement that comes out of him, I have to laugh out loud at him. He still seems to believe the Israelis did no such thing as invade Lebanon. Oops. :)
"now u believe Abu Huraira"
I do not believe Abu Huraira.
Please read the explanation above. Who is being reactionary now? :D
"So that no fighters LEAVE LEBANON"
Well, I am sure the Americans would open the door and welcome those fighters in Iraq. :)
And if they don't, that proves that they have a hand in this. :D
"WHY DID THEY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH OTHER PALESTINIAN GROUPS EXCEPT WITH THE PROSYRIAN ONES LIKE HAMAS????"
Actually, they did have problems with other Palestinian groups, but not with all of them (not counting Hamas). :D
Do me a favor, and read this:
"بعضهم كانوا شقراً وعيونهم ملونة، فيما غالبيتهم سمر، وتدل لكنتهم على أنهم خليجيون. وهم يتكلمون بالفصحى حتى لا يطّلع محدثوهم على هويتهم الحقيقية."
Wow, so Syria can actually get Khalijis to come and serve its interests in Lebanon, and Syria is guilty until proven innocent. But Saudi Arabia or any other side is innocent until proven guilty.
"تروي أن هؤلاء كانوا يمتلكون مالاً كثيراً، ويعرضون على مالكي المنازل في المخيم أموالاً طائلة وصلت مرةً إلى عشرة أضعاف المبلغ الذي يطلبه عادة صاحب الملك لقاء تأجير شقته."
Syria is swimming in the "green stuff" (dollars), eh? :D But it cannot be Saudi Arabia or any other side. That'd be "conspiracy theory".
"now even Iran is accused of training al-qaeda and Syria as well"
If accusation means proof, then I accuse you of training Al-Qaida too. :P
"the iranian and syrian regimes have made it clear to benefit the instability to alter the regional balance to their advantage."
I did not really know that it was Syria or Iran that talked about "constructive chaos".
And as for the soldiers, yes they are humans too, and who said I do not see them as anything other than authority?
Anyway, in Lebanon the army has no authority.
And I am not a Marxist.
- At May 25, 2007 at 6:38 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
The following also goes to debunk MFL's argument that just because Fateh al-Islam have not denied ties to Syria, they are therefore stooges of Syria:
نفى المتحدث باسم تنظيم «فتح الإسلام» أبو سليم طه، في حديث مع «الأخبار» عبر الهاتف، أي علاقة تربط التنظيم بسوريا، متهماً النظام السوري بأنه «ارتكب المجازر بحقّ إخوة لنا في سوريا». وقال إن ما حصل في حماه خلال الثمانينات هو «بمثابة جريمة بحقّ المسلمين».
Now, as you can see, they have denied all ties to Syria.
Thus, according to MFL's argument, they are no longer tied to Syria. :)
Also, apparently, Karameh is now prime suspect because he has not said anything about what has been going on.
And HezbAllah is also a suspect, because 1) no bombs have hit "its areas"; 2) its coverage on the first day of events on Al Manar was pretty much non-existent; 3) its response came much later than the response of the other parties.
Really nice analysis. :) Quite imaginative.
- At May 25, 2007 at 6:42 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
No civilian casualties?
لام المشاركون الجيش الذي استهدف مخيّم نهر البارد بالقذائف الثقيلة، ما أدى إلى سقوط عشرات الشهداء المدنيين العزّل؛ ومن هؤلاء عزّام (42 عاماً)، الذي يملك محلاً لبيع السكاكر في المخيّم، وقد توجه لمساعدة شبان المخيّم في توزيع الإعانات التي أدخلتها شاحنة الـ
، فأصيب بإحدى شظايا القذائف التي استهدفت القافلة، فنزف حتى الموت لانعدام المستلزمات الطبية اللازمة.
- At May 26, 2007 at 6:15 AM, Renegade Eye said...
Graeme's information is similar to what I've been told.
- At May 26, 2007 at 9:49 AM, Angry Anarchist said...
Well, it seems quite obvious, for anyone who wants to analyze what is going on and not blindly point fingers, that the people who were responsible for amnestying the Dinnieh gangsters, are now doing mafia-style liquidation of anyone who might potentially expose their ties to the Salafis in Tripoli & surroundings.
One of the ones who were shot point blank in Bab el-Tebbaneh by the Security Forces loyal to Hariri, is "Abu Jandal" who was tried with the Dinnieh gangsters but later released under the amnesty law (which also saw the release of Majdal Anjar gangsters and warlord Samir Geagea). The forces claimed that they tried to arrest Abu Jandal for his ALLEGED (emphasis on this) role in the recent bank robbery which sparked this whole mess, but he resisted... Residents however tell a different story. Witnesses who were also exiting the Mosque say he was shot while exiting the Mosque.
Siniora "requested an investigation in this matter". :)
But no, it's Syria Syria Syria.
And the ones who are saying this, are all pro-Syrian propagandists. :D
- At May 26, 2007 at 12:04 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Some more points:
-1.2 million dollars were found in one of the apartments that were raided by the security forces. This is according to security sources.
-The Nahr el Bared and Tripoli incidents were "sparked" by an operation by Security forces (of which the army was not notified) against some Salafi elements who had allegedly stolen 1.5 million dollars from a bank (then the number went down to 150,000, and then to a mere 1,500 dollars)...
-If they had 1.2 million dollars in an apartment, why would they need to steal 1,500 dollars? This question is posed in Al-Akhbar newspaper. A legitimate question, don't you think so?
Also, there is no indication that any of the people the army alleges to have killed, have really been killed. Where are the bodies? Have we seen them? Have we identified them? How do we know the army is not bluffing?
And how does the army, given that it has not really entered the camp, know how many Fateh al-Islam elements have been killed INSIDE the camp? And how does it know what their identities are?
And if so many elements have been killed and Fateh al-Islam is still going strong, then it is much more than a mere 200 people (of whom 50 have already been killed, as per the army allegations).
- At May 26, 2007 at 5:09 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
This is too amusing to ignore...
All this time... You've been descreditting all sources mentioned and then turns out that u actually believe al-Akhbar!
Holy FUCKING GOAT! oh MY FUCKING GOD!!!
MAN AS I SAID TO YOU BEFORE>.... THE HELL U HAVE A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR!!!
- At May 26, 2007 at 5:10 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
And i'm the joke....
- At May 26, 2007 at 5:24 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
A couple of uncontested facts:
Abbas Zaki said on Arabiyya that we don't have 'autonomy' to help. we require that 'autonomy' to be able to do so :-)
Mahmoud Abbas just announced that the PLO is ok with the ending of this "phenomenon" but the parties outside the PLO are against. (Maybe the Americans forced him to say so...)
Elias El-Murr is puny... so is someone like Bush... but he's a PLAYER... he is a minister... and he announced that "IF IRAN SENDS AID IT IS WELCOME" (stop giving us crash courses and ur famous 101 and teaching us about logic! u dislike someone so u do not hear them out... wow... great! This is a "position" dear! it is a given... (u are becoming too small to see by now... i am truly Laughing my ass out now!)
U teach us logic, let me understand urs:
Fatah al-Islam had a lot of money, Syria is too poor to swim in green, but Saudi Arabia can... then it must be Saudi Arabia that is funding them...
Have more jokes for us???
Stop debunking dakheeel 3ardik! ya rayta zabta ma3ik...
Try constructing better arguments of urs...
it's good that u consider the army with no authority... no contradictions in ur words at all! so now an army with absolutely no authority is POUNDING ON PALESTINIANS and MASSACRING THEM... yes.. because the CIA and SANIOURA CONTROL THE ARMY AND PUT IT IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS BY SLAUGHTERING 11 soldiers... (most of who are SUnni!) see. sanyoora and cia are working on a Sunni Sunni conflict.
And i am shooting u with conspiracy theories...
man... inti wala stand up comedy! u should try that...
- At May 26, 2007 at 5:36 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
u actually believe al-Akhbar!
No, I believe Al-Mustaqbal. :) See my new post. :D hahahahhahahah
Is that better now? :D
Anyway, the information I cited has been all over the rest of the media, too. I am not passing them as facts. I am using their own arguments against them. That is all. :) But you do not seem to know how that works. Again, logic 101.
No, actually, I do hear Elias el Murr. But only for the laughs. :D
Hmm, no, I never said it's Saudi Arabia. Al Mustaqbal admitted so in 2005 back when they were not aware the article would come back to haunt them and bite them. :D hahahaha. :)
Now you want to believe Syria's officials' STATEMENTS but when it comes to Hariri gang, they say something they mean something else? Based on what do you make this distinction?
Yes, the army has no authority -- an army's authority is defined as defending the country from any threats. But then the army is being quite the politician, it seems to be questioning the definition of "threat". :D I think we must have two units in the army: Chapter 6 Unit and Chapter 7 Unit. :D
What is your point re: Siniora & the army victims being mostly Sunnis?
First, the victims were not targeted for being SUNNIS. They just happened to be so (but I would not be surprised if you will now come up with a conspiracy theory and argue that they were specifically targeted for being Sunnis, because Syria wants to teach the Sunni Hariri-Siniora axis a lesson). Second, you think just because Siniora is Sunni he cares much about Sunnis irrespective of what the "big" plan is? Do you really believe in the good will of these politicians? Is that really a leftist argument, I wonder? :D
- At May 27, 2007 at 2:02 AM, sTreEt eYeS said...
now ur starting to become silly...
I guess that's why good comedians end their sessions at the high note... u guess it comes with experience ;-)
listen... we started this tragically funny epic with your reply that i fell for the good & bad fiasco. and that this "fighting terrorism" is now being copied by March 14 and the likes of fatfat and murr from the Americans...
and to the moment u follow my words not my ideas. i think that's all ur good for.
Twist the following words please:
1- I don't believe statements that make assumptions, speculations, and analyses based on personal interpretations. I might take them into consideration, but i do not believe them. However, when a certain representative makes a "position statement" he is making a position, he's not doing any of the above. I only used that type in all the ones i have mentioned to u.
2- Let me humor you my friend and believe that Saudi Arabia was/is funding such groups. Great. Then they have nothing to do with Palestinians, but they are in the camp. Non-Palestinians (Politically speaking) in a Palestinian camp. And everyone knows the sensitive situation here. How the hell do they accrue control over a camp of 30,000 inhabitants? ok let us not complicate you with that... wu halla2 u'll start blabbering about racism and nationalism. Let's move to point three.
3- I am not gonna make assumptions about why and what the plans of the group where. Why dont you explain to me why did the group attack the army? in reply to the raid on their appartment? So... let me see... So they were being harnessed by Future and what have u... suddenly their checks were cut off and they were rejected. So feeling betrayed they went crazy.. and they acted upon this.. and look what is happening now. so... when does Al Capone show up?
Oh forget stand up comedy... listen George Lucas isn't going to do Star Wars 7,8,&9... I think u should do it...
4- After you answer me WHY they attacked the army.. (which of course u won't) please explain to me based on ur sources... (i wonder) who is disallowing the camp inhabitants from leaving the camp? what are the other Palestinian groups doing to help? Which groups are standing in the way? (i think all are.. no one wants to be the scapegoat.. but refer to Mahmoud Abbass's statement that it is non PLO groups that are standing in the way) What is Osama Hamdan's position on the situation? What is he doing about it?
5- It's funny the army of no authority as u claim is doing the dirty deed... and to u it is even the shrewd politician by "questioning the definition of 'threat'" what the fuck is that statement? that is like the stupid song: blowing in the wind... u r funny (once again!) how the hell is that? doesn't it contradict ur claim that the army is Massacring innocent civilians? and how can it be doing what u just mentioned? it is IMAGINING that 11 of its soldiers were SLAUGHTERED...
6- I believe in power politics and interests... that is what i meant by the Siniora and Sunni question... dividing loyalties to strengthen the grip over profits of all types.. power! (i am not justifying to u i am explaining it to cos u seem to need to be spoon-fed in order to understand)
7- So now Hassan Nasrallah, and i am NOT linking his speech with any Syrian involvement and accusations, is warning of division and violence and war in the camps... talk about war being the extension of politics and vice versa! so... yalla... let's create a bigger rift and gap so that we shake the balance. oh... but no! Nasrallah is talking about the human conditions.. he is worried about the tight balance and the shaky situation... (to me he is just quite happy with keeping the situation the way it is, cos having armed camps and such institutionalized normalized havoc would so embelish his own group's image) and is defending the oppresed and poor people living in the camps... he is their guardian angel, while the Burj al-Barajneh camp is under total control of HEzbollah.. not one weapon is allowed without the approval of Hezbollah! and that is something the Nasrallah was bragging about during the 7iwar... (check the minutes)
8- the "big" plan??? thank you... i rest my case...
when are u performing honey?
- At May 27, 2007 at 12:18 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Yes, I know I am silly, but do you have to remind me of it very second? ;-)
Yes, I follow your words, what else should I follow? I am not a mind-reader, and so all that I can rely on is your words. If you are unable to express what is on your mind that is your problem not mine. How can you expect me to judge your ideas based on something other than your words?? And isn't that essentially what you are saying, about announcing a position? Aren't your words clearly announcing a position on this issue? What more is there to "follow"?
Al-Mustaqbal newspaper is a Hariri mouthpiece (now you will denyu it). Thus, anything that is written there is based on the positions taken by Hariri Corporation/Empire. Now you will tell me Al-Mustaqbal newspaper is infiltrated by pro-Syrian propagandists. Fine. I would even accept that argument. But when you make that argument, you will need to explain to me on what basis pro-Syrian propagandists would bash Syria for restraining Salafi movements in Lebanon and heaping praises on the fact that after Syrian withdrawal these movements have been able to increase their activities. Don't tell me the Syrians are also writing anti-Syrian propaganda to portray themselves as victims of attacks...!!!! :-D
You are going round and round in circles. Do not humor me, I am not lacking any humor. In fact, I am laughing out loud as we speak. Why did you not address my new post? Is it, I wonder, that you are afraid of those who use people's words to debunk their own claims? :^)
It is not my job here to answer the question of how those fighters "accrue control" over a camp of 30,000 inhabitants. What is your implication? That 30,000 Palestinians are complicit in this? But what about the Tripolitans, how did the Salafis make Tripoli into their stronghold? Shall we bomb Tripoli to kingdom come, because they did not (and yes, they all do have weapons, like you accused Palestinian refugees of having weapons) take matters into their own hands (a la Geagea gangsters) and kick out those Salafis?
Why the double standards?
You say, the army is right to indiscriminately shell Nahr el Bared camp.
I say, the army must shell the city of Tripoli.
Silence is complicity?
Moreover, I am not in any position to explain why the group attacked the army. Unlike you, I do not arrive to "proofs" and unchangeable conclusions based on such questions as "why did they attack the army?", etc. Ya khayyi, what is it that you want to hear? That Syria wants to target the army, to weaken it and divide it (hence your argument that they targeted specifically SUNNI soldiers/officers???) and to bring about a civil war and then to re-enter Lebanon? Whoa. Slow down there a bit, buddy.
Yes, of course I will not answer why they attacked the army. I, unlike you, do not claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to have all the pieces to the puzzle (if you do, please immediately call the army and inform them, maybe the brave army will declare open war on Syria and start shelling Syrian cities with their American reinforcements).
No one is disallowing the camp inhabitants from leaving the camp. You cannot have it both ways. Either the inhabitants are leaving (and this is what the army claims), or they are held as hostages by Fateh al-Islam. Which is it? Make up your mind already. Hint: a hostage of Fateh al-Islam would only be INSIDE the camp and not OUTSIDE it.
Mahmud Abbas said that it is non-PLO groups that are standing in the way? hahaha... well what a surprise. I mean, we tend to forget the mini civil war that is going on in the Gaza Strip, and so now Mahmud Abbas has become the authority on what is happening in Nahr el Bared? And you seriously use this as your argument against Hamas, etc.? My friend, no one is doing anything about it. In this respect, all are the same. As they say, "same shit, different names". I am surprised you do not, as a leftist, see this.
What does the killing of 11 soldiers have to do with the indiscriminate shelling of the camp and the massacring of refugees? What do the refugees who are not holding up arms against the army have to do with what happened to the army? Why is it that every time I mention this, you use the emotional card against me? Don't you know by now that it will not work? Yes, the 11 soldiers' lives are not any less valuable than those of the refugees. But that is EXACTLY the point. But sadly, it is not YOUR point.
Power politics and interests. Exactly. And that power politics is not based on really caring much about Sunnis. They brought down houses on the head of many (Sunni) families, for their "reconstruction" project, remember? Now Siniora is such an angel that he would care about the welfare of these Sunni soldiers/officers (and as if these soldiers, whoever it was that is standing behind Fateh al-Islam, were specifically targeted for BEING SUNNI?!?!?) ?
And as for Nasrallah's speech...... it was full of crap, so I do not see what is your point? What are you implying here?
Yes, thank you, do rest your case. But do remember to build your house with something other than cards. :o) You know what happens to a house of cards, hmm? :^)
- At May 27, 2007 at 1:24 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
yes are incoherent yalli byishfa3lik inno ur funny... mod7ik mobki style...
i did not supply "proofs" and i did not defend mustaqbal and i did not say they were infiltrated by proSyrians and i am not building fucking theories... this is all in UR HEAD...
I am asking u something clear and u have answered NOTHING to the moment. All u do is discredit everything... in 3arabi derij: 3anzeh walaw tarit...
u r now with: ZERO CREDIT...
i ask u why they killed 11 soldiers and u reply with posing stupid irrelevant questions and diversion on what i am thinking and that kind of crap...
we are running around in circles... i wonder why... anyway... i can go on forever until i get one coherent idea from u besides ur crap and ur debunking every argument... oh yes so smart...
u do not consider political powers taking positions, u do not car on the actions of powers, u do not care about what is happening... u are DISCONNECTED honey... u have an idea and mtayysseh 3a rabba! and u messed with the wrong asshole! :-)
all u can do is put words in my mouth... put all u want! it still doesn't give u any credit...
U can't even answer questions about things that OCCURED... it is not ur position to comment on the killings and actions of Fatah al-Islam but it is ur position to claim bombing camps and indiscriminate bombing and accusations based on no facts...
i cant blame u... u do not even live on this earth apparently...
once and for all: i am not WITH the indiscriminate shelling.. cos i do not believe it is INDISCRIMINATE since i don't see numbers YET...
stop trying to anticipate what i will do next... don't worry about that... worry instead about what exactly u base urself on so that u make ur position.. ur next posts per se...
yalla... ana wiyyaki wil zaman tawiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil...
- At May 27, 2007 at 2:36 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Yes, of course it is all in my head.
In fact I never said you supplied proofs (my argument was that you did not), or defended al-Mustaqbal or that they were infiltrated by pro-Syrians. In case you missed it, it is called "humor". Maybe you've been distributing humor so much that you do not have any left. :)
You are asking me what?
I am not the one defending A Position. You are. When you declare a position, as you indeed did, expect that people would ask you questions and demand proofs/evidence. Or you are used to the politician-herd dynamic and want to apply it on me?
So you are accusing me of failure, because I am not answering your (frankly, stupid) question about why Fateh al-Islam killed the 11 soldiers. Fine, now, please answer the question yourself. I am really curious as to what your answer is. :)
Yup I do not care about what is happening... But do you have any proof about that, or is that based on your mind-reading? In fact, you might actually be right, as they say "fekhhar ykassir ba3do", and I would have said 7aram 3al sha3b el m3attar, but the sha3b el m3attar mastool w mush 2ader yfakker ab3ad mn 1+1 = 2 ==> bil roo7 bil damn nefdik ya Jumblatt/Aoun/Geagea/Hariri/Nasrallah/Tashnag/Hnchag/Ramgavar/etc.
So maybe you got one thing right. So far.
You are not with indiscriminate shelling?
So far you have not denounced it, and every time I mention it, you talk to me about numbers of dead and about how Fateh al-Islam is the one violating ceasefires...
What does indiscriminate shelling have to do with number of casualties or with whether or not the ceasefire terms are respected by Fateh al-Islam?
Does it cease to be indiscriminate just because of the above two?
Do I see any proof from the army that the bombing is not indiscriminate? No. Do I see any statements from international aid organizations and agencies, ICRC and UNRWA for example, as well as numerous pro-Syrian media sources (like BBC) that entire neighborhoods have been targeted ? Yes, I do. But sorry, I must believe the army. Why? "Because the army says so."
- At May 27, 2007 at 7:53 PM, sTreEt eYeS said...
you are not taking a position?
hehehe... u get better with time don't u?
yes i do have an answer for u...
these camps have been the target of militant gangs that take over and 'patrol' the streets... and have committed crimes and broke out into fighting on almost a stable rate for so long.. that this fact has become a system.
and the syrians have harnessed this system throughout the period they occupied and controlled lebanon.
yes the syrians occupied lebanon! or do u wanna start the internationalist revolution from lebanon (a multiethnic entity?) this is what i mean by ur disconnection and disproportion!
u want proof? where does khaled meshaal reside? u did not answer. why don't u go ask aboul aynayn where did he resort to when he was sentenced to death?
i am not denying the fact that every single political figure is corrupt and an equivalent of a low-life and less... just so that u don't bullshit me with imaginary terms like u usually do...
i am not hesitant in saying that all militant groups in palestinian camps remained armed even officially during the Syrian presence... while the rest were ruled with an iron fist! oh... that is not proof? please honey, this is politics... not 007! or sherlock holmes... what kind of an idiot are u to be waiting for that??? go read some comics hayete..
because the country is too corrupt and too weak and disintegrated, the camps have enjoyed that freedom... and now when they tried to assert authority on the group (regardless of a righteous one or not) they hit back with what they did.
now... who do i accuse? i accuse the political involvement of Syria... and i don't give a shit what u think or u might reply... or ur wanna be too clever to believe shit persona... in the 7iwar sessions all parties agreed on the palestinian arms question outside the camps... and look now what hassan nasrallah (who boasts with his alliance with Syria and whose pics are next to asad's in the re-election process today) said about the red line in naher el-bared.
do u believe in American involvement in Lebanon? if u do... (which i am sure u do) then please fikki 3anni with ur idiotic looping in circles and don't tell me that syria has nothing to do in lebanon! wen 3aayshe hayete?
about indiscriminate bombing... u don't care about the link btwn civilian casualties? wow...
but they're bombing the caaamp.... tayyib fine... no massacre yet.. i'm taking u finally backed down on that... but they're bombing indiscriminately!!!!
did u see the interviewed refugees what were they saying? the army was bombing the positions where the fighters were.. and even only when they fired first... that is ur indiscriminate bombing...
ooooh... i am so nationalist and patriotic.. this is why i believe whatever the army says! i am so naive... god bless our nation and trooops...
tayyib tell me what do u suggest the army does with the militants?
oh... i forgot... u don't suggest shit... u just debunk... hehehe
nice. u keep amazing me!
- At May 28, 2007 at 12:44 PM, MarxistFromLebanon said...
I didn't rule out Syria, they are still the primary suspects :)
- At May 29, 2007 at 10:30 AM, Torstein said...
Being Norwegian, I feel I need to disassociate myself from the earlier comment about Norwegian police arresting terrorist suspects that have supposedly been trained in Latakia.
This sounds like fabricated news as I have heard nothing about this in the Norwegian media and a case like this would have been blown out of all proportion here had it been true.
Blame it on Syria! :)
- At May 29, 2007 at 12:08 PM, Angry Anarchist said...
Torstein, you are probably an undercover Syrian agent, or on Syrian payroll. :D
I think that Syria has half the world on its payroll. The other half belongs to the "axis of Lebanon-lovers".